Back in 2001, during the height of my religious mania, I saw a mini-series called Anne Frank: The Whole Story. Although it isn’t historically accurate (what happens to Anne Frank after she’s captured by the Nazis is pure conjecture), I was very moved by the story. Of course I already knew about the Holocaust, but seeing the plight of one Jewish family really brought it home. Anne Frank was a sweet, innocent young girl with dreams of becoming a movie star. She certainly didn’t deserve to die in a concentration camp.
The end of the mini-series shows Anne and her sister, Margot, in Bergen-Belsen. They’re both sick and emaciated, but they’re still trying to survive. In one of the last scenes Anne tries to wake up her sister, but Margot passed away sometime during the night. When Anne realizes she’s dead, she looks up at the sky with mournful eyes as if to ask, “God, where are you?” We soon learn that Anne died a few days later. In the final scene, Anne’s father returns to the annex where his family hid for so long. When he sees the wall where Anne had pasted photos of all the movie stars she admired, he falls to the floor and sobs.
After it was over, a horrible thought occurred to me: Anne Frank wasn’t saved! As an evangelical Christian I understood that the only way to avoid Hell and go to Heaven was to repent of your sins, believe that Jesus is the son of God, and accept him as your personal savior. That meant Anne Frank was in Hell. This idea went against every moral instinct I had. How could God send someone like Anne Frank to Hell? This became one of the many questions I wrestled with as I slowly lost my faith.
Some Christians like to think Hell is just a metaphor, but the Bible makes it very clear it’s a real place. In Matthew 13:50 Jesus describes it as “the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” In the book of Revelation it is referred to as a “lake of fire” nine times, and verse 19:20 says it is “burning with brimstone.” There are many other verses about Hell, but you get the idea.
The Bible also says a lot about the importance of belief. There are several verses that say whoever believes in Jesus will be saved. The Bible is also very explicit about the dangers of unbelief. For example, Mark 16:16 says, “he that believeth not shall be damned.” John 3:18 says the same thing, only it uses the word “condemned.”
This is what I don’t understand: Why is belief a requisite for Heaven? Even if I granted the idea that sin requires a holy sacrifice, why couldn’t God apply the benefits of that sacrifice to whomever he wants? What universal law makes it to where Jesus’ sacrifice only works for believers, and why is God bound to that law if he created everything? As Sam Harris said, “It’s a very strange sort of loving god who would make salvation depend on believing in him on bad evidence.”
Now consider the case of Ted Bundy. In case you don’t know, Ted Bundy was a serial killer who raped and murdered at least 30 young women. While he was on death row, he claimed to have “found forgiveness for his sins through Jesus Christ.” Most Christians don’t like the idea of potentially meeting Ted Bundy in Heaven, so when you ask them if he’s up there, they usually hem and haw and say something like, “Only God knows whether he was sincere.” But that response just evades the question. The point is this: According to the Christian religion, if Ted Bundy was sincere, then he received salvation through Jesus Christ and will spend eternity in Heaven. Meanwhile, Anne Frank will continue to burn in Hell (along with any unbelievers Ted Bundy murdered). What a mockery of justice!
Some Christians fall back on the old “God’s ways are higher than our ways” argument. They might even say, “Who are you to judge God?” Of course, this isn’t an argument at all; it’s a copout. If you say God has some sort of justice we don’t understand, then you’re not talking about justice as we define it. And anything that is not justice as we define it is, by definition, not justice. You may as well say, “I’m right and you’re wrong because God says so.” Well I’m sorry, but that’s just not good enough.
Another common rationalization is that people who refuse to believe in Jesus send themselves to Hell. This one makes me angry. Am I supposed to believe that after Anne Frank died she literally jumped into the lake of fire on her own? Of course not. God would have had to put her soul there. It’s akin to the abusive husband who, after beating his wife for not cooking dinner, says, “You brought this on yourself.”
If God exists and he’s a just god, he wouldn’t judge people based on whether they believe in him. He would judge them by the content of their character. There are plenty of good people in this world who simply aren’t convinced god exists. I don’t see how a just god could send them to a place where, as George Carlin put it, they will “suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever.”
If you still insist that God has no choice but to send unbelievers to Hell (where’s that omnipotence you’re always talking about?), then why did God create the universe in the first place? If God knows everything, including the future, then wouldn’t it have been more noble to endure an eternity alone rather than devise a system that he knew would end with the eternal suffering of countless people?
I’ll leave you with this thought: If the Christian religion is true, then Anne Frank and millions of other Jews who died in the Holocaust merely went from one furnace to another.
Anne Frank wasn’t innocent. She was just as much a sinner as anyone else. You claim a moral high ground for her and yourself, but without God, morality is nothing but personal preferences..
You’re right about one thing: it’s all personal preferences. And I prefer teenage girls who have never hurt anyone not burn in a lake of fire for eternity.
You, on the other hand, seem to prefer that anyone who doesn’t believe the same things as you burn in a lake a fire for eternity.
Of the two ways of thinking, which one is more likely to create a world full of tolerance and which one is more likely to create a world full of bigotry?
What you, and most atheists tend to do, is dismiss God’s holiness. You have your own ideas of justice that tolerate sinful behavior and makes you feel superior and good about yourself.
It doesn’t matter one bit if you think Anne was just an innocent teenage girl. There are no innocent or good people. We have all broken God’s commandments in thought and deed. We all stand guilty before Him.
Your supposed “goodness” doesn’t make you better than God – it simply makes you a fool. To avoid the judgment, that deep down you know is coming, you simply try to get rid of the Judge. It allows you to dull your conscience and live a sinful life .
By comparing your “goodness” to the “goodness” of others, you attempt to make the case that the God of the Bible is unfair and you are morally and intellectually superior.
You’re simply endorsing sin in the name of almighty “tolerance.”
It’s telling that your kind tolerates everything but holiness.
Oh, and I don’t believe for one second you were ever an actual Christian.
Yea, this is the kind of stuff I used to tell atheists.
So far you’ve called me a fool and a liar and are claiming that my main motivation is the live a “sinful” life. And you don’t even know me. You’re a perfect example of how “revealed religion” makes people so arrogant.
Everything you’ve said here is completely moot, anyway, until you can prove god exists and that there is such a thing as “sin.” All I’m concerned with is discovering the truth (whatever that many be), avoiding behavior that harms others, and helping foster a world where more people get along.
But you have a worldview where people who don’t agree with you are “unholy” and deserve to go to Hell (even children). If anyone here is making the world worse, you are.
(Quote) So far you’ve called me a fool (End Quote)
The Scriptures call you a fool. (Psalm 14:1)
(Quote) implied I’m a liar (End Quote)
You don’t belong to God, thus your father is the Devil (John 8:44) And the will of your father you will do. He is the father of lies, and so, you also are a liar.
(Quote) claimed that deep down I know you’re right (End Quote)
In your heart, you know God exists. Creation is proof of a Creator. You are simply suppressing the Truth in unrighteousness.(Romans 1:18-19) You are without excuse. (Romans 1:20)
(Quote) and are even claiming to understand my motivations: to live a “sinful” life. (End Quote)
You are lost. You refuse to have God be your master because you want to be the master of your life. Thus, your life will be dominated by sin. (Ephesians 4:17-19) You are, in fact, dead in your sins. (Ephesians 2:1)
(Quote) Everything you’ve said here is completely moot, anyway, until you can prove god exists and that there is such a thing as “sin.” You don’t even know for sure, you just have faith, and yet you have the gall to tell me your worldview is the correct one and that my motives are evil. (End Quote)
Again, creation proves the Creator, because a Universe cannot create itself from nothing. (First Law Of Thermodynamics) Whatever comes into existence must have a cause. It cannot be self-caused. (Law Of Causation) Also, the Universe could not have existed forever, as it is approaching heat death. (Second law Of Thermodynamics) Nor can life create itself from dead matter. (Spontaneous Generation was soundly disproved by Pasteur)
Since you cannot, by the scientific method, prove a self-creating universe, or spontaneous generation of life, you have far more faith than any Christian alive. Your faith is simply in the ideas of man. Thoughts, by your worldview, are nothing but random atoms crashing together.
(Quote) All I’m concerned with is discovering the truth (whatever that may be), avoiding behavior that harms others, and helping foster a world where more people get along. (End Quote)
You’re not interested in the truth. Jesus is the truth and you have no desire for Him. You also have no interest in “getting along” as you have a website dedicated to attacking and mocking God and those who believe in Him.
(Quote) But you have a worldview where people who don’t agree with you are in rebellion and deserve to go to Hell (even children) (End Quote)
It’s not my worldview – it belongs to God. Sinful man is indeed in rebellion to Him, and certainly does deserve His wrath. He has given you everything through common grace – down to each breath you take – and yet you shake your fist at Him. He even died to pay the penalty for your sins, so that you could inherit eternal life, and yet it’s not enough for you.
(Quote) By the way, please check out my article on whether I was a “true Christian” (End Quote)
You weren’t. You were a false convert who was fooling himself. If you were an actual follower of Christ you would not have turned back to the world.
1 John 2:19 exposes the truth of your claim.
Oh wow, you’re even more far gone than I thought. I doubt a rational discussion with you is possible, but in the hopes that there is some part of you I can reach, here are a couple thoughts.
As I said, everything you say is moot until you can prove the Bible was written by God. I agree that creation needs a creator, but first you have to prove it is a creation! I don’t have an explanation for how the universe got here, and I don’t need one. You’re the one who claims to know how it got here, so please provide some evidence.
Even if you could prove the universe was created by god, you would still have all your work ahead of you to prove the Bible is God’s word. But as far as I can tell, it’s just another religious book, and based on what’s in it, it appears to be written by primitive bronze-age people.
The No True Scotsman fallacy is getting old. If I wasn’t a Christian, how do you know you are? Did you even read the post I linked you to? You have no idea how difficult it was for me when I realized Christianity is just another made up religion. I didn’t stop believing so I could sin. I wanted to believe, but I couldn’t.
The reason I created this site is because I genuinely believe religion is very harmful to society (see the post in the header called “Why I’m Doing This.”) For once, stop insulting atheists and try to see it from their perspective for a change.
(Quote) I don’t have an explanation for how the universe got here, and I don’t need one. (End Quote)
I see.
You have no desire for an explanation of the origin of the universe, or life, because it might lead to God. The Bible speaks directly of you when it says:
“In his pride the wicked does not seek Him; in all his thoughts there is no room for God.” (Psalm 10:4)
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.…” (Romans 1:18)
You simply suppress the truth because of your wickedness – your love for sin. Even if you won’t admit it for yourself. You are a rebel because you delight in your rebellion.
(Quote) Even if you could prove the universe was created by god, you would still have all your work ahead of you to prove the Bible is God’s word. But as far as I can tell, it’s just another religious book, and based on what’s in it, it appears to be written by primitive bronze-age people. (End Quote)
Well, that’s proof positive you never actually investigated the claims of the Bible.
Prophecy, especially regarding Christ and the Jewish people is enough evidence of it’s divine nature.
(Quote) If I wasn’t a Christian, how do you know you are? (End Quote)
Easy. Because I didn’t abandon Christ as you did.
(Quote) I didn’t stop believing so I could sin. I wanted to believe, but I couldn’t. (End Quote)
You had no actual desire to believe – if you did, you would be a Christian today.
(Quote) The reason I created this site is because I genuinely believe religion is very harmful to society (End Quote)
Hardly. From what I’ve read, you created this site simply to mock and insult believers.
(Quote) For once, stop insulting atheists and try to see it from their perspective for a change. (End Quote)
The truth is not an insult except to those who hate the truth. Also, I have no desire to give credence to a “perspective” that consists of such gross error.
The atheist perspective: “The universe created itself from nothing, and life, with all it’s genetic information, created itself from dead matter.”
No thanks. I’d rather use my brain.
“I see. You have no desire for an explanation of the origin of the universe, or life, because it might lead to God.”
Believe me, I would love to learn about the origin of the universe and life. I just think it’s dishonest to jump to the conclusion that god did it. That’s not how science works.
“You simply suppress the truth because of your wickedness – your love for sin. Even if you won’t admit it for yourself. You are a rebel because you delight in your rebellion.”
I guess we’re at an impasse. You refuse to take my word for it that I don’t “just want to sin” and claim to know me better than I know myself. Don’t you think that’s just a little arrogant?
“Well, that’s proof positive you never actually investigated the claims of the Bible. Prophecy, especially regarding Christ and the Jewish people is enough evidence of it’s divine nature.”
Perhaps you are the one who needs to investigate the Bible more. Here’s a tip: Don’t just read books that are written by Christians, they’re obviously biased. I am unaware of any specific prophecies that have been fulfilled. And I don’t care if the New Testament fulfills prophecies in the Old because the writers of the New could have written it to make it fit with the Old.
“Easy. Because I didn’t abandon Christ as you did.”
Maybe someday you will. Keep in mind that I used to say all the same sorts of things you are saying.
“You had no actual desire to believe – if you did, you would be a Christian today.”
Again, you’re claiming to know me better than I know myself. What if I started saying, “You just want to believe so you can go to Heaven. That’s all you care about”? Wouldn’t you get angry if I presumed to understand your motivations?
“Hardly. From what I’ve read, you created this site simply to mock and insult believers.”
Please read: http://southernskepti.wpengine.com/why-do-i-care-about-things-i-dont-believe/
“The atheist perspective: “The universe created itself from nothing, and life, with all it’s genetic information, created itself from dead matter.””
I never said the universe created itself from nothing. You are attacking a strawman version of atheism that you learned from other Christians. I encourage you to learn what atheism really is. Check out some of the other articles on this site for more info. Good luck!
(Quote) Believe me, I would love to learn about the origin of the universe and life. I just think it’s dishonest to jump to the conclusion that god did it. That’s not how science works. (End Quote)
You only have three options:
1. The universe created itself.
2. The universe has always existed.
3. It was created.
Scientifically, the laws of thermodynamics wipes options 1 and 2 right off the table – which leaves only one option left.
(Quote) I guess we’re at an impasse. You refuse to take my word for it that I don’t “just want to sin” and claim to know me better than I know myself. Don’t you think that’s just a little arrogant? (End Quote)
God knows you, and thus, His word speaks of you. You simply suppress the truth in your unrighteousness and refuse to bend the knee.
(Quote) Perhaps you are the one who needs to investigate the Bible more. Here’s a tip: Don’t just read books that are written by Christians, they’re obviously biased. (End Quote)
And yet, I’m quite certain you enthusiastically read the biased writings of atheists.
(Quote) I am unaware of any specific prophecies that have been fulfilled (End Quote)
Then you have never been a serious student of Christianity.
(Quote) And I don’t care if the New Testament fulfills prophecies in the Old because the writers of the New could have written it to make it fit with the Old. (End Quote)
Impossible. The writings of the New Testament were long in circulation, and often quoted by secular writers, long before certain prophecies were fulfilled – such as the Jewish Temple being destroyed, the Jewish dispersion throughout the world, and their return to the land to become a nation again.
(Quote) Maybe someday you will. Keep in mind that I used to say all the same sorts of things you are saying. (End Quote)
Saying them and actually believing them are two different things. Even Satan quotes Scripture.
(Quote) What if I started saying, “You just want to believe so you can go to Heaven. That’s all you care about”? Wouldn’t you get angry if I presumed to understand your motivations? (End Quote)
If my motivations lined up with Scripture, I’d be delighted. And yes, heaven is where I want to go, and I do indeed care about getting home.
(Quote) I never said the universe created itself from nothing. You are attacking a strawman version of atheism that you learned from other Christians. I encourage you to learn what atheism really is. (End Quote)
As an atheist, it’s one of two choices you have. See the three options above.
Fascinating discussion! Matt, I just found your blog a few days ago and have been steadily reading through all your posts. I find the perspective of those who have “left the fold” particularly interesting, and though I’ve never really been a believer myself I sympathize with the struggles that you’ve gone through. (Unlike some, apparently…)
Tim, I commend you for your civility, and you seem like an intelligent enough person. Which leads me to a question: perhaps it’s not appropriate for me as an unbeliever and a stranger to ask this, but is this how you witness to everyone? As one who has never been a believer I may be a lost cause, but I would think Matt would be someone you’d like to win back for Christ (and might have a better than average shot of it)? I would think it’s pretty clear calling someone a liar straight out of the gate is not going to win you many friends, let alone converts. That’s just my 2 cents…
All that aside, I have just a couple of things to say about the points of the actual discussion:
Re: the “3 options”, I’ve taken a year of college physics, that’s it, but I’m not clear on how the laws of thermodynamics eliminate options 1 and 2 but not 3. Also, what about “the universe came into being” as an option? You might say that’s the same thing as option 1 but I would contend that the passive versus active distinction is actually quite an important one.
On the subject of what books to read: Yes! Read books by both! I’m
guessing Matt does, or at least has read *both* sides, but have you,
Tim?
Re: prophecies, I’d be curious to know what other prophecies have been fulfilled. I don’t know the Bible well (am working my way through it) and will look into the examples you cite. I have to say, though, that at least as far as the formation of Israel that seems at first blush to fall under “self-fulfilling”. (I think I can speak for most non-believers that one of my fears for humanity is that the rest of the book of Revelations one day similarly becomes “self-fulfilling”.)
Finally, regarding the issue of atrocities committed by “Christians”: Matt already brought up “no true Scotsman”, but I thought I’d add that if history is any indication, if there are still people on this planet 100 years from now they’ll quite likely (and correctly) think of us and our contemporaries as barbarians and idiots, comparatively speaking.
Hello, Jimbo.
(Quote) is this how you witness to everyone? (End Quote)
No. But since he is being hypocritical by saying he was once a Christian, in defiance of the biblical definition of a follower of Christ, he needs to be called out and rebuked. He needs to hear the truth in the hope that it’s starkness will awaken him.
(Quote) I would think it’s pretty clear calling someone a liar straight out of the gate is not going to win you many friends, let alone converts.(End Quote)
For your benefit I’ll use a few “if’s.”
If God exists, and if the Bible is indeed his Word, then it is correct in what it says. If one is not a child of God, then by default, they are of the Devil. The Bible says Satan is the “father of lies” – thus, those who are not born again, and do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit, will do as Satan does because they possess the same “spirit” as the Devil – i.e., “lawlessness.”
Satan lies, and so, those who belong to him lie as well.
(Quote) Re: the “3 options”, I’ve taken a year of college physics, that’s it, but I’m not clear on how the laws of thermodynamics eliminate options 1 and 2 but not 3. (End Quote)
Option 3 was not subjected to natural laws because that event had/required a supernatural cause. If one only believes in the Big Bang Theory, it is taught that all matter, energy, space, time, and all “laws” came into existence at that point. As God is the Creator of those laws, He is not subjected to them. Nor is His creative power.
The Law of Causation teaches that only things that come into existence require a cause. God never came into existence, He has always existed, and thus does not need a cause. The universe, however, came into existence and thus needs a cause. Since it cannot have been self-caused (creating itself from nothing) and has not always existed, it must have been created by an outside agent. The only being powerful enough to create and sustain a universe, is God.
(Quote) Also, what about “the universe came into being” as an option? (End Quote)
From what? If you believe it was birthed from another universe, for example, you are merely pushing back the problem. Where did THAT universe came from with all of it’s matter and energy? There is no such thing as infinite regress. At some point, you must explain where/how it all originated.
(Quote) On the subject of what books to read: Yes! Read books by both! I’m guessing Matt does, or at least has read *both* sides, but have you, Tim? (End Quote)
I’ve read many of the works of the “new” atheists – Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, Hitchens, etc. and the one thread I’ve found between them is they do little but attack the character of God. The have no plausible scientific explanations for the creation of the universe and life, so they tend to stick with the God is:
1. A bully
2. A monster
3. Unfair
theme.
(Quote) I have to say, though, that at least as far as the formation of Israel that seems at first blush to fall under “self-fulfilling”. (End Quote)
How could it be self-fulfilling? No other people have lost their country, been scattered throughout the world, and then returned to their original land to become a nation again, and have it all foretold by the Bible thousands of years before those events took place? How could a people engineer that?
And for another example, how could the prophesies regarding Christ be self-fulfilled such as His birth place, His betrayal, and the method of His execution?
(Quote) Finally, regarding the issue of atrocities committed by “Christians”: Matt already brought up “no true Scotsman”, but I thought I’d add that if history is any indication, if there are still people on this planet 100 years from now they’ll quite likely (and correctly) think of us and our contemporaries as barbarians and idiots, comparatively speaking. (End Quote)
Again, anyone can claim to be a Christian and do things in His name, but the test of a true follower of Jesus is whether or not they obey Him. Jesus said do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and to love your neighbor as yourself. If you obey those commands in regard to others, you are not going to murder them, steal from them, sleep with their spouses, etc.
Jesus Himself asked, “Why do you call me Lord and not do as I command?” (Luke 6:46)
See also: Titus 1:16, 1 John 1:6, 2:4, and Romans 6:16.
(Quote) No. But since he is being hypocritical by saying he was once a Christian, in defiance of the biblical definition of a follower of Christ, he needs to be called out and rebuked. He needs to hear the truth in the hope that it’s starkness will awaken him. (End Quote)
Okay, fine — I would just honestly be surprised if this tack ever worked, or is more a pro forma kind of thing with those considered to be apostates. On the other hand, even if you think Matt is lying, I would think a more sympathetic approach would be more effective, “e.g. I’m sorry to hear you’ve lost your faith, many Christians struggle with tough questions, etc.” And to the outsider like myself, it appears
harsh, and even (to use a word you used earlier) “cultic”. I will say your approach is preferable to that of Islam, at least… 😉
(Quote) Option 3 was not subjected to natural laws because that event had/required a supernatural cause…. (End Quote)
OK, but I still don’t see how you are suggesting that the laws of thermodynamics apply to options 1 and 2.
(Quote) The Law of Causation teaches that only things that come into existence require a cause….. Since it cannot have been self-caused (creating itself from nothing) and has not always existed, it must have been created by
an outside agent. …. (Unquote)
This “Law of causation” I was not familiar with – I guess we’re shifting from physics to philosophy. I assume you would add to “only things that come into existence require a cause” that “any thing that comes into existence
requires a cause”, yes? Anyway, it’s not self-evident to me that the universe “cannot have been self-caused”.
(Quote) From what? If you believe it was birthed from another universe, for example, you are merely pushing back the problem. Where did THAT universe came
from with all of it’s matter and energy? There is no such thing as infinite regress. At some point, you must explain where/how it all originated. (End Quote)
Of course, I would respond that the theistic position has the same infiniteregression problem. To just draw a line between “natural” and “supernatural” and put God there to plug the hole seems like an act of resignation, forfeit,
abdication.
(Quote) I’ve read many of the works of the “new” atheists –
Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, Hitchens, etc. and the one thread I’ve found between them is they do little but attack the character of God… (Unquote)
Okay, I’ll admit I’m surprised at that, kudos to you for at lest being open-minded enough to have a look. Oddly enough, you’ve probably read more of those than I have! I suppose I don’t read more of their work because it doesn’t teach me that much I don’t already know; “Preaching to
the converted”, perhaps. On the other hand, I’ve been somewhat frustrated with books/lectures Christian friends have referred me to because they also tend to presume belief-in-advance.
(Quote) The have no plausible scientific explanations for the creation of the universe and life, so they tend to stick with the God is: 1. A bully 2. A monster 3. Unfair theme. (End Quote)
Well, probably not (indeed, necessarily not) complete explanations. But “plausibility” is apparently a matter of opinion, i.e. you’re not saying they don’t provide *any* explanations, just that you find the explanations that are
provided implausible. Fair enough. You have to admit, though, the “problem of evil” (which is basically what all three of those qualities boil down to) is a pretty big deal, theologically. (And how this whole discussion more or less started.)
(Quote) How could it be self-fulfilling? …. How could a people engineer that? (End Quote)
“Engineer”; that’s it precisely – it seems to me it’s not so much a “prophecy” as it is a “mission statement”. (I was referring mostly to the “becoming a nation again” part.) Maybe the odds of success weren’t good, but
nonetheless it wasn’t an accident, or a natural phenomenon like a volcanic eruption, which would be stronger evidence for some kind of divine involvement.
(Quote) And for another example, how could the prophesies regarding Christ be self-fulfilled such as His place of birth, His betrayal, and the method of
His execution? (End Quote)
You’ll have to excuse my Biblical ignorance – of course I know that Christ foretold his own betrayal, but don’t know where precisely in scripture His place of birth and method of execution were prophesied.
(Quote) Again, anyone can claim to be a Christian and do things in His name, but the test of a true follower of Jesus is whether or not they obey Him. ….
(Unquote)
Okay. But certainly, self-professed “Christians” of the past believed they were obeying Jesus when they did things that we would find abhorrent. Of course, slavery is an obvious example – nominally “Christian” slaveholders
probably still believed they were doing unto others and loving their neighbors because their blacks were property, not people. Were abolitionists the only true Christians in 19th century America? And if so, how can anyone
claim the USA was founded as a Christian nation? (Perhaps you wouldn’t, and I’m being presumptuous.)
(Quote) Okay, fine — I would just honestly be surprised if this tack ever worked, or is more a pro forma kind of thing with those considered to be apostates. On the other hand, even if you think Matt is lying, I would think a more sympathetic approach would be more effective, “e.g. I’m sorry to hear you’ve lost your faith, many Christians struggle with tough questions, etc.” And to the outsider like myself, it appearsharsh, and even (to use a word you used earlier) “cultic”. I will say your approach is preferable to that of Islam, at least… 😉 (End Quote)
It is harsh – and it should be. Matt has stated that he used to say many of the things I have said, so platitudes will not sway him. He is fully aware that he is purposely leading others to hell by encouraging them to abandon their faith in God as he has.
(Quote) This “Law of causation” I was not familiar with – I guess we’re shifting from physics to philosophy. I assume you would add to “only things that come into existence require a cause” that “any thing that comes into existencerequires a cause”, yes? Anyway, it’s not self-evident to me that the universe “cannot have been self-caused”. (End Quote)
It’s not philosophy, it’s scientific fact. Nothing can be self-created. Nothing comes into existence without an external cause. Can you offer, through scientific evidence, even one example of something self-created? Do horses just pop into existence in the middle of your living room?
Neither do universes pop into existence from nothing without a cause.
(Quote) Of course, I would respond that the theistic position has the same infinite regression problem. To just draw a line between “natural” and “supernatural” and put God there to plug the hole seems like an act of resignation, forfeit,abdication. (End Quote)
Infinite regression only applies to things coming into existence (such as the universe). There must be a point of beginning. By definition, God is eternal, and thus the law does not apply.
(Quote) Well, probably not (indeed, necessarily not) complete explanations. But “plausibility” is apparently a matter of opinion, i.e. you’re not saying they don’t provide *any* explanations, just that you find the explanations that areprovided implausible. (End Quote)
They are not attempting to prove God doesn’t exist – they simply attack His character as a means to diminish Him. But it’s pointless to attack the character of a being you don’t understand – nor wish to. Simply by saying you believe God’s actions are wrong, or even wicked, does nothing to disprove His existence.
(Quote) You have to admit, though, the “problem of evil” (which is basically what all three of those qualities boil down to) is a pretty big deal, theologically. (End Quote)
I don’t see a problem.
You see, evil is not a “thing” – it is simply the absence of good. God gives everyone free will to choose to do right or wrong. Our planet is suffering because of the choices mankind has made. People are murdered because other people choose to kill them. Countries are conquered because other people choose to war with them. People lose their belongings because other people choose to steal from them, etc. We have rebelled against our Creator and basically told God we don’t need Him – we’ll be just fine on our own. And so, God has allowed us the consequences of that decision. He has taken His protective hand away from His creation, and allowed a fallen nature to take it’s course. with all of it’s pain, suffering, and natural disasters.
It’s a tragic fact that when things are going well, people tend to forget God. But when things are going bad, they shake their fist and blame it all on Him – without realizing we are the cause of our own misery.
(Quote) “Engineer”; that’s it precisely – it seems to me it’s not so much a “prophecy” as it is a “mission statement”. (I was referring mostly to the “becoming a nation again” part.) Maybe the odds of success weren’t good, butnonetheless it wasn’t an accident, or a natural phenomenon like a volcanic eruption, which would be stronger evidence for some kind of divine involvement. (End Quote)
You also fail to recognize that the destruction of Israel, the scattering of the people throughout the world, and their eventual return to become a nation once again, was prophesied while Israel existed as a nation. No human being, without divine insight, could have foreseen the thousands of years of Jewish history before the events actually occurred.
(Quote) You’ll have to excuse my Biblical ignorance – of course I know that Christ foretold his own betrayal, but don’t know where precisely in scripture His place of birth and method of execution were prophesied. (End Quote)
This link may help:
http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/biblestudyandtheology/jesus_prophecy_fulfilled.aspx
(Quote) Okay. But certainly, self-professed “Christians” of the past believed they were obeying Jesus when they did things that we would find abhorrent. Of course, slavery is an obvious example – nominally “Christian” slaveholders
probably still believed they were doing unto others and loving their neighbors because their blacks were property, not people. Were abolitionists the only true Christians in 19th century America? (End Quote)
Again, many people professed and used Christianity (and still do) in an attempt to justify their behavior. Jesus said MANY people will call Him Lord, but He will not know them.
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ ” (Matthew 7:21-23)
“It is harsh – and it should be. Matt has stated that he used to say many of the things I have said, so platitudes will not sway him. He is fully aware that he is purposely leading others to hell by encouraging them to abandon their faith in God as he has.”
That is ridiculous. I am not “purposely leading others to hell” because I don’t believe there even is a hell.
This is one of the things I hate about religion. It makes people like you think you have it all figured out: how the universe got here, the meaning of life, and even the contents of other people’s minds!
You don’t know me. You don’t understand me. You have no idea what I’ve been through. I did not want to lose my faith. I did not want to be alienated from friends and family members. And I did not want to believe that there is probably no afterlife (especially now that I’ve lost my father).
But I wasn’t able to convince myself of something that doesn’t seem to be true. I tried, but it was like trying to make myself believe in Santa Claus.
You have no idea what it’s like to deconvert. For some people such as myself, it can make you confused, disillusioned, and depressed.
Yet you sit there and think, “He just wants to sin” or “he delights in his rebellion.”
FUCK YOU.
It’s true, Matt – I don’t really know you – but I don’t have to. God knows you. He knows all about you, and others like you.
Please read the following carefully. What I’m about to say, I say because I do care about you. If I didn’t, I wouldn’t even bother to comment.
Matt, the reason you went through such anguish is because you were a false convert. You can deny it all you wish, but God’s Word is clear. Your “Christian” life, from what you’ve posted about yourself, was nothing but works righteousness. You worked, and worked, and worked to please a god you created in your own mind. A god who demanded more and more of you. Every slip up brought a flood of condemnation down upon you, and you constantly strove to do “better” next time.
You did all of the Christian “things,” yet, without substance. You relied on your own merits to gain favor with God. – to placate Him. That endless cycle – the non-stop hamster wheel. Every “victory” was hollow because you couldn’t stop second-guessing yourself. You wanted to do everything exactly “right” but felt you never could. You always managed to fall short. It seemed everyone else was living the “Christian life” but you. (Your guilt certainly must have been crushing). If only you could pray better, if only you read the Bible more, if only you could win more people to Christ, THEN you could possess the happiness and certain faith you saw in other followers.
On and on and on…around and around and around….
Matt, you never understood the simplicity of the gospel. That’s why you are so angry and spiteful – lashing out at believers on your site through mockery and disdain. You are angry at a god you could NEVER please – no matter how hard you tried.
When Christ died on that cross, he took upon Himself, every single sin you have ever committed. Every sin in your past, and every sin in your future. Not a single sin in your whole life was left out. That’s why the Bible says we are to “put on” Christ – His shed blood is our covering, so that when the Father looks upon you, all He sees is a sinless son.
That’s why we are told to “rest” in Jesus. All the work required for our redemption and forgiveness was accomplished at Calvary.
We will produce good works worthy of repentance. But those works are given to us by God to build our character – not to keep us saved and on His “good side.” They have absolutely nothing to do with the security of our salvation.
That’s why God gets all of the glory for our salvation. The Father draws men to Jesus, the Holy Spirit convicts them of their sin and need for a savior, and Jesus saves them through His atonement.
It’s all about God, and not about you.
That’s why you had no real joy. It’s because you were never really saved. You never “deconverted” because you were never converted in the first place.
Just remember this, Matt; The offer of salvation is still open for you. Jesus said He would never cast away anyone who comes to Him in repentance and faith.
It’s not walking up an aisle. It’s not church attendance. It’s not a mumbled “sinner’s prayer.”
It’s asking for forgiveness with a genuine repentant heart, and placing your faith in Jesus alone for your salvation. Believing He truly died and rose again. A childlike faith – the size of a mustard seed.
Don’t allow yourself to be deceived by Satan any longer. Don’t allow your pride or resentment to prevent you from receiving the pardon Jesus freely offers. Don’t allow your heart to be hardened against the true gospel to the point of your irreversible damnation.
As C.S. Lewis once said: “The gates of hell are locked from the inside.”
Don’t send yourself there.
As you said, you don’t know me. Yet you still think you understand me better than I understand myself. I know this is probably a waste of time because you’re just going to dig in your heels, but here goes.
Do you honestly think that afte years in an evangelical church, reading Christian books, and studying the Bible, I never learned about all the things you just wrote?
First of all, your only basis for saying I wasn’t a true Christian is that I stopped believing. If you met me at the time, you wouldn’t have had any problem saying I was a Christian. You might have told me I need to relax, stop trying so hard, just be happy, etc. But you wouldn’t have said, “You’re not really saved.” All you have now is the No True Scotsman fallacy, and it’s getting really old.
Your view of my Christian life is wrong, anyway. Most of the time I was very happy. I used to love going to church, I enjoyed prayer, I liked reading the Bible, and I sung to God in the car to and from work. That was not works righteousness. That was because I was joyful and I loved God!
But when keeping journals, people tend not to write about the good times. They often use their journals to vent about the bad times. So by reading the entries on this site, you’re getting a skewed view of what it was like for me when I was a Christian. Most of it was good.
Here’s the thing: Unlike most Christians, I actually tried to be a better person. I knew it wouldn’t get me any closer to Heaven, and I knew my greatest works were like filthy rags to God. I knew that no matter how hard I tried, I was only saved through the grace of Jesus Christ. It wasn’t about trying to stay on God’s good side. It was about doing what was right whenever I could because it was right.
You are wrong when you say “every slip up brought a flood of condemnation.” My day to day life was pretty normal. However, unlike you, I did feel bad whenever I did something that was clearly wrong. You see, I had a conscience, so I actively tried to be a better person.
Your problem is that you have this rosy view of Christianity where you don’t even have to try. You think that since you’re saved, you can just relax and only do good things when you feel like it because trying too hard would be “works salvation.” Well how convenient! Now you can “rest” in Jesus and feel self-righteous and judge people like me.
Maybe you are the one who was never a true Christian. Maybe Jesus will cast you out and say he never knew you because you tried taking advantage of his gift. You thought you could just relax and not even try to improve yourself. You thought there was no need to feel guilty about your mistakes because Jesus already paid the price for them. Well with that attitude, you are practically spitting on Christ’s gift.
Now read this carefully: Here’s why I stopped believing. It wasn’t because I couldn’t live up to some impossible standard. It was because I realized the claims in the Bible were not based in reality. There is no evidence a god exists, and there is no evidence the events in the Bible actually happened. Ultimately, you have to have faith.
Your problem is you are starting with the assumption that Christianity is true, so for you there seems to be plenty of evidence. Here’s an analogy: If you started with the assumption that the Earth is the center of the universe, you would see tons of evidence for it. Just look at the sky! Everything obviously goes around us, right?
This is what you’re doing when you talk about evidence for god or the bible You are not being objective, and your confirmation bias is filtering out anything that contradicts your worldview. I have been where you are, so I know. You are the one who is deluded.
For a time I was interested in teaching Christian apologetics. In order to understand the arguments better, I decided to start with zero assumptions and see where the evidence led me, assuming that of course I would come to the conclusion that Christianity is true.
I didn’t. I was horrified to discover that the arguments made by atheists were more logical. They were not claiming to know anything for sure; they simply pointed out that Christians don’t have sufficient evidence and that their philosophical arguments are illogical, just like every other religion.
This was incredibly disappointing. I kept believing for a long time and continued searching for answers, but it was like death by a thousand cuts. I found so many problems with Christianity that eventually I just didn’t believe it anymore.
Ask yourself why you don’t believe in Islam or Mormonism or Buddhism. They have their own apologists. Why are they wrong? Apply that same standard of evidence to Christianity and you’ll realize it’s as fake as every other religion.
So you see, I didn’t stop believing because I got frustrated by trying to live up to an impossible standard. When I was a believer, I knew I’d been forgiven and that thanks to Jesus, God saw me as perfect and sinless.
I understand grace quite well, thank you. The things I did were not to earn salvation; they were because I loved God, because I was grateful, and because I wanted to be a better person.
That’s why it was so hard when I realized it wasn’t true. It was like losing a loved one, then finding out they never existed in the first place.
But nope. You got it all figured out. You understand me better than I do even though you’ve never even met me. Because nearly 2000 years ago some people cobbled together a collection of religious books and letters and declared it infallible. Meanwhile, God hasn’t been seen or heard from since. Yea. Makes sense. If you are still a believer after several years, then you are not being intellectually honest.
I’m done.
There’s a reason pride is called the deadliest sin. Tim’s comments are some of the most prideful, vain, narcissistic Christian writing I’ve seen in years. Amazingly prideful, haughty, and decidedly UNChristian.
Why on earth would you choose to worship a God like that?
What a good read!!! It boggles the mind. How can a creator do this to his own children? No one I know that has children would be able to go “Ok, you make the choice but if it’s wrong you will burn for eternity” My own Mother told me once if she could make me and my sister make the right choices she would. Humans are far from perfect. We hurt and kill each other but so does the god of the bible.